[Music]
Hey, thank I
Welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway and me Gatri.
The European Union and its Euro zone may
be coming apart at the seams. Following
Brexit, demand for referenda to quit is
growing in the Netherlands and in Italy.
Switzerland has abandoned its
application to join and Greece may have
to default. Spain and Portugal are
facing sanctions from Brussels. Where
did it all go wrong? Dr. Russell Foster
of King's College London is a
considerable expert on the European
project and so we are considerably
interested in what he has to say about
the state Europe's in and he joins us
now. Dr. Russell, thanks for coming on
board. Let's start with the Netherlands,
which we all know well. Uh what's the
state of play there? What's the
possibility of a referendum being held?
And if it were, how would it go? The
state of uh of the Netherlands is uh
indicative of the state across Europe of
growing euroskeepticism and hostility
not to the European idea but to the
specific institutions of the European
Union. the possibility of an exit or a
Dutch referendum on membership can't be
ruled out, especially as we saw in April
earlier this year, the referendum on uh
the Netherlands association agreement
with Ukraine, which was ostensibly a
referendum about the Ukraine, but in
reality was a referendum on Dutch
opinion of the European Union and it was
a catastrophic defeat for the Europilic
parties. So there is a growing sense of
euroskepticism among the Dutch as there
is among the French to a lesser degree
among the Germans but most substantially
a growing euroskeepticism in the
Mediterranean literal nations in Spain
in Greece which obviously has been
euroskeptic for several years and in
Italy and in the last couple of months
well the last month we've seen that
Brexit has given a precedent has been
the first occasion apart from Greenland
in the 1980s where a member state has
withdrawn from the union without dire
economic consequences at least in the
immediate short term and this will act
as a rallying point for Dutch
euroskeepics for German for Danish
Swedish euroskeptics to say we can do it
as well. I couldn't have put that better
myself but I want to focus in on one of
the first things that you said. I was a
campaigner for Brexit, not because I'm
against Europe. I love Europe. I hate
the EU. That's a different thing. That
put me in the same camp as some people
who don't just hate the EU, but probably
hate Europe and anyone that they think
of as Johnny foreigner. And that's an
uncomfortable place to be.
I wish we could rip it up and start
again. And if we could uh then we could
all happily build a new European Union
on a human basis. But if we have to take
this European Union, I say no. And I
think more and more people uh think like
that. Wouldn't it be possible therefore
if we could get a referendum in the
Netherlands, in Italy, in Denmark and so
on and people started voting out and
then had this 2-year interregnum
uh at which point the European Union
institutions might be prepared to say,
"Well, this isn't working. We're going
to have to try something new." It's a
nice thought. Now, unlike you, I was
campaigning for Britain to remain in the
European Union. That I'm aware that the
EU has manifold problems, endless
faults, but I thought that it was better
than uh the alternative of not having a
Europe. It would be a nice idea to be
able to move on from the European Union
to, as you say, a new European Union,
one that is not predicated on an
economic basis, but one which is built
upon social trust and social
institutions. I I can't foresee that
happening in uh in the short term or
long-term future. The Brexit referendum
revealed a deep uh hostility to the
European project, not specifically the
European Union, but broadly the European
project. Now, the day after Brexit, we
saw the former Belgian Prime Minister Ga
Hofat, who quite uh quite tellingly
stated that this is a sign that people
are not against the European idea,
they're against the European Union. Now
the way I see it, the European Union and
the European idea have become
inextricable. That if the European Union
goes, it takes the European idea with
it. That the idea that we can dismantle
the union and create some sort of a new
European economic community or some sort
of looser
uh alliance of European states. I I
can't really see that happening anytime
in the future. But why not? Uh it was
never intended uh that this should be an
ever closer uh political union. It was
never intended that it must encompass
every single country in the European con
continent. And it certainly was never
intended that the poorest countries in
the European continent should lose all
their population, especially their young
population. more than half of all young
Latvians are working somewhere else
other than Latvia. Uh and it seems to me
that that these are design faults uh
that have crept into the to the whole
business. Well, the union has many
design faults which have been there
since the early inceptions of the
European coal and steel community. Now
the three points you raised there, the
third one I cannot disagree with. It was
never a plan for the union to split
between the richer industrial countries
and the less wealthy Mediterranean or
eastern nations. But the first two
points you raised on uh the union was
never meant to encompass all of Europe
and it was never meant to pursue ever
closer union. I think that these have
been a part of the European idea since
1945. that the European idea, whether
it's the ECSC, the EEC, the EU, has
always been built upon the idea of a
manifest destiny of Europe to be united.
Yeah. But they accepted the Cold War
division of Europe. They didn't seek to
recruit they didn't seek to recruit uh
the socialist countries of Eastern
Europe into the European Union. They
pretended they weren't in Europe.
Absolutely not. There were empty seats
at the European Parliament for those uh
European states which were still
shackled behind the Iron Curtain. And
once the curtain came down and the
Berlin wall came down, the European
Union did extend its hand and
invitations to Eastern European member
states. So I think that the European
Union has its leaders and institutions
have always desired to expand the union
across the whole of the continent. Now
the second point, why not Russia? Then
Russia's too big. Its economy is is
simply too vast. uh the European
economies wouldn't be able to compete uh
with with a Russia within the union. But
this raises a very important point of
where do we draw the boundary of Europe.
This is a question that keeps coming
back when we talk about potential
Turkish membership when we saw the
enlargements in 2004 and 2007 of where
does Europe end of who is European who
is not European and significantly who
should and should not be considered
European. Now the other point that you
made there on ever closer union,
political union, ever closer political
union. This points to what for me is the
fundamental design flaw of the European
project from the late 1940s. That what
worked for the European project in the
midentth century is now an active
hindrance to the EU in the 21st century.
That the early institutions and the
early leaders based further European
integration upon the theory of
neofunctionalism.
the assumption that closer economic,
financial ties would then spill over
into closer political ties and political
unions which would then spill over into
a social a psychological union whereby
people no longer thought of themselves
as Portuguese or Bulgarian or Fins but
as Europeans.
Now to a small extent that has happened
with uh the wealthier citydwelling
elites in Europe who may have more in
common with their peers in other cities
than with their peers within the same
country. But for the large numbers of
Europeans who have been left behind by
globalization, who have been left behind
by the neoliberal project, this has this
spillover has not happened and people
have not uh accepted this identity as
European. Now when this neofunctionalist
doctrine was created in the late
1950s, it it became taken up by the
European institutions almost as a gospel
of Jean Monet that further economic
union will lead to further political
union will lead to continued peace. It
hasn't happened. And a consequence of
the European institutions continually
following this dogma is that they have
continued to place economic rationale
ahead of social well-being. And since
the beginning of the Great Recession and
the credit crunch, we've seen the
European
Union's unelected technical experts who
were doing a great job in the 1970s and
the 1980s when the European Union was a
distant economic entity. We've seen the
same unelected experts implementing
policies which make perfect economic
sense, but without consideration of the
social consequences that this has. And
this points to what is for me the
fundamental problem of the current EU.
Not only its democratic deficit, but its
emotional deficit that it is still being
run like a corporation like it was in
the 1960s and the 1970s, which was
necessary. we couldn't we can't put
fishing quotas and trade agreements to
the public vote because nothing would
get done. So that was fine in the 20th
century. But now when the EU's
institutions start implementing
austerity packages, when they start
telling uh the Italian government that
it can't bail out its failing banks for
the third time, when it starts uh
stating to Eastern European members that
they may not fortify their borders
against the migration crisis. these uh
other sanctioning Spain and Portugal
seeking uh to throw off austerity.
Absolutely. And sanctioning the
Mediterranean countries who have been
hardest hit by austerity. What happens
is that people will look at the EU's
policies not as sound economic
strategies, but as dictats being handed
down by an unelected elite. It's doomed
then, isn't it, doctor? as you describe
it.
Yes, with a very long if. I think that
the EU can be saved. If if four changes
are made. The first one is that the EU
needs to make significant reforms to
make itself democratically accountable
to the people. Since the introduction of
the euro at the beginning of 2002, the
European Union has changed from a
distant economic entity that was
concerned with tariffs and corporations
into something that has a genuine impact
on the everyday lives of 500 million
people. That requires democratic
accountability. The second one is that
the EU should consider scaling back some
of its powers of not handing down
dictats from Brussels. The third one is
to abandon the outdated doctrine of
neofunctionalism. Ernst Har who created
neofunctionalism in his 1958 book
uniting Europe 17 years later published
a second book in which he stated
actually it's not working. We should
abandon it. And that was in 1975. It's
still being pursued today. And the
fourth one that needs to be done is that
the European Union's leaders need to
acknowledge that there is a significant
emotional power in Europe today of
active hostility to the European
project. So it can be saved if these
four things are done. The problem is
that these are rather vague strategies.
And the second problem is who's going to
do that? If the technocrats in Brussels
start implementing these, it's going to
appear like another series of dictats.
If an elected politician such as Angela
Merkel or Franis Holland, if they try to
implement these, they'll be committing
political suicide as they'll lose votes.
None of them are up to that kind of
task. Uh none of them have the
credibility. There is no European
political leadership that people have
sufficient credibility in. There is a
European leadership, but they lack
credibility. Totally. Uh they absolutely
lack credibility just like the British
political leadership uh does. But I must
say, you've made a better case for the
European Union than I've heard for quite
some time. Dr. Russell Foster, thanks
for joining us on board the Sputnik.
Coming up after the break, weaponized
humor from South London. Another great
upand cominging black comedy talent
joins us. Don't miss it.
Welcome back to Sputnik. We like people
who weaponize humor in the cause of
peace, justice, and equality. as long as
they're funny. It is an amazingly
powerful weapon. If a picture paints a
thousand words, a joke can travel even
further than that. Our next guest has
traveled only from South London. But
he's going far, I can tell you. He's
just been commissioned by BBC 3 for a
new series called Sunny D. He's Dane
Baptiste and he's with us now. Dane,
thanks for coming on the Sputnik. First
of all, congratulations on your uh
commission. Tell us what the sitcom is
about. The sitcom is uh basically a
semi-autobiographical
uh look at my life before I started
doing standup comedy and just it's uh
kind of deals with some of the
frustrations I had with working a
dead-end job and tries to capture I
guess what's the quarter life crisis for
a lot of uh uh people of my generation
who were kind of given the promise of
being able to go to university and
pursue a higher education and now find
themselves unable to uh realize any kind
of professional fulfillment uh or
industrial feel fulfillment and also
just some of the basics of just being
able to afford a home. So, it kind of
the planes of reality are between like
the work and then the home life and then
just I kind and just the things I try
and do to escape. So, there's a lot of
like cut scenes, a lot of fancy scenes
about how I would imagine my ideal life
and it's just how working towards how I
can achieve that um with hilarious
results. Did you write it? I did as well
as perform. Yes. All of it. You wrote
everything? I did. Yes. Fantastic.
You're a very talented uh guy. I saw you
were telling me he's just one of Well, I
think you were um you were you were
nominated as one of the first uh best
newcomers. Yes. Britain. I was nominated
for best newcomer in uh 2014 at the
Edinburgh Finch Festival and uh
transpired. The Guardian picked up that
I'm the first Black Britain to be
nominated so far. Um which was an
additional uh acclaim which I was very
happy to embrace which I hope is the
catalyst uh for more uh creatives of
color to go to the festival. And uh
yeah, well, there's not many black
people around the Edinburgh Festival.
Not many workingass people. I grew up
just a few miles away and uh I was a
grown man of well into my 30s before I
ever crossed the threshold Yeah. of uh
of the Edinburgh Festival. So, you're
obviously going places. Did you have to
go looking for the BBC or did they come
looking for you?
Um as a a mixture of both. So I guess I
had uh initially some performances uh to
get visibility in front of uh uh the
BBC. Um, and then with my debut show,
they uh came and uh uh BBC commissioner
Shane Allen came to watch the show and
asked me if I had a treatment that um I
could submit for the BBC comedy feeds,
which is a scheme they have which allows
uh new and undiscovered talent to uh you
know uh to have some experimental uh
projects on the BBC and from there um
that kind of precipitated into the
series being commissioned. Um, so I
would say as far as the BBC over the
last two to three years, they've been uh
very instrumental in helping me develop
my talent and working closely with me.
So yeah, they've been actually quite
good in kind of seeking me out. So it's
been great. You've also been across the
water in the United States. Were you
performing there? Yeah, I went to the
States a few years ago before I did
debut show. Uh, I did a few gigs there
as well, just to gauge how my material
received and it was it was Yeah, it was
good. And um I'm hoping to continue to
do that a lot more as well because um
I've been uh largely influenced by a lot
of US comics and uh US narrative. Um I
would say some Bill Burr, Chris Rock,
Eddie Griffin, George Carlin, uh Bruce
as well. So just um Dick Gregory
probably one of be one of my biggest
influences. Um I just think some of the
work he's done so far as comedy and his
level of social activism is all
inspiring. Do you see a different
response? Is is there like a different
culture and attitude towards this Yeah.
this industry in which you work as a
black artist? Um there there is to an
extent I'd say. Um in the UK it's very
different in terms of just in the same
way I guess there's the social
difference. So in the states where a lot
there's the narrative about race
relations um seems to be a lot easier
because people are aware and they accept
that uh race is woven into the social
fabric of the states whereas there
whereas the Brits are in denial to some
extent. I would say there there is a lot
of denial there. I think a lot of people
uh there is the general idea that class
breeds more than race in the UK.
However, I would argue that uh maybe
mostly your post-war wind rush
generation that would have been from the
Caribbean or from uh West Africa or
former British uh colonies in Africa
would have come to the UK and been a
part of the working class and then
therefore would have dealt with
discrimination on two fronts, whether it
be on a class or race-based one. Is
there is there any crossover difficulty?
I mean, do you find it I suppose if I
put it crudely, do you find it easier to
make black people laugh or white people
laugh or is it exactly the same? No,
it's a fair question. I I say it's
exactly the same. I think uh with any
group, you you have to deal with uh most
people if you speak to them
individually, you can be quite rational
and you can identify or find a mutuality
with somebody. Whereas sometimes when
groups get together, they can uh form a
mob mentality. So that can be a lot
harder to penetrate. And then I'd say
I'd say that they're equal in that there
are uh so far as a spectrum of topics
you can discuss on stage, there are some
uh taboos for predominantly black
audiences and then some taboos for uh
predominantly white audiences. So um I'd
say creatively is you just have to hold
people's the mirror of humanity up to
people and just deal with it in that
way. So um they are they're challenging
for their for different reasons. Yeah.
And is it the same in the United States?
Uh you're absolutely right that
everybody in the United States knows
that uh that race is the elephant not
just in the room but sitting on the sofa
next to you. Well, I mean I mean the
elephant is is the symbol for one of
their for along their bipartisan system
anyway. So well I'm glad you got your uh
trips into the United States cuz who
knows whether if President Trump might
might let you in or President Clinton
for that matter. Who knows that we'll
want to go uh to the United States under
either of them. But the United States
right now looks like it's on the cusp of
uh almost generalized uh racial warfare.
Hardly a day goes by without an incident
because of the technology we have now.
Hardly an incident isn't filmed and once
distributed
uh new incidents and new levels of aggro
uh follow. uh under a black president.
Uh we've got more black kids in prison
than we do in university. We've got Bill
Clinton's policy of three strikes and
you're out leading to a situation where
a small nation, not quite small nation,
or black people are in prison uh in
America and black people are beginning
to fight back. Yeah. Uh in some cases,
literally fight back. Uh, none of that's
very funny, but you've got to uh be an
observer of that and find the humor
within it. There's a task for you. Go
on. Yeah. No, no, but it's a good task.
I mean, the thing is, you know, the
saying is uh it's one of two things that
comedy is tragedy plus timing. And then
also the other That's a good quote. What
is that? Tragedy plus timing. That's a
very good quote. Yeah. And and also the
fact that if you don't laugh, you cry.
And I think um one of the reasons why uh
you've seen a lot of uh some of the more
prominent or prolific comics uh either
coming from either Jewish or black
background is that this is how people
rationalize what they perceive as
historical uh discrimination um is by
using humor. And I think uh especially
for the black community that I'm aware
of is that uh humor has always been a
great way of uh I guess mitigating the
uh the uh I guess the conflict you deal
with when you you feel that you're being
discriminated against or you are
generally hated by a uh by a government
or or or as the systems oppressing you.
I guess that's how you kind of
rationalize it. Um and it's uh it can be
very difficult but I think it's probably
one of the better ways in in dealing
with it. You know, laughter is one of
the best medicine and yeah, it's a great
way of self-medicating. It's a great uh
medicine. Now, you grew up black and
workingass in South London and now
you've made it onto the BBC. How do your
peers look at that? With envy, bit of
jealousy, pride, mixture of all. Um I
would say for the larger it's uh it's
it's more pride and support. I think
that's been one of the best things about
working in this industry is that uh most
of my peers and contemporaries have been
supportive. Um there's a very uh strong
uh sense of fraternity amongst a lot of
my peers in terms of and that's because
I guess people look at is that if if
he's if he's doing it therefore it can
be done. So people have been very
supportive in that respect. Um so far as
uh envy um it's nec I don't think
necessarily think that's predisposed to
like my black peers. I think comedy is a
solitary art form. So sometimes people
feel if I'm not on that stage then it
means I've lost out and that's not
necessarily and that's not always
necessarily the case. So So um few weeks
ago we had Ava sitting where you were
sat with her baby with her baby first
time and uh well she uh you worked with
her before and she has been very active
with the with the Corbin movement and
understand yourself as well. Could you
tell us about that? Yeah. Uh recently I
uh performed at a fundraiser for Jeremy
Corbyn uh which on the same day was
revealed that he'd be able to appear
again on the ballot as well for
leadership of the Labour party. So yeah,
it ended up going from potentially tense
night to a very jovial one. So yeah, it
was great and uh it's wonderful working
with uh people who are intelligent and
as politically active as uh Ava um
Jeremy Hardy is also a comic who's also
yeah very clued up and uh yeah very
helpful and obviously given me a lot
more uh knowledge in terms of uh I guess
performing for the left and kind of
understanding uh a lot more about how to
apply a socialist paradigm to my comedy
as well in the milure now that you
travel amongst amongst amongst
comedians, amongst uh people in the
comedy industry,
how would you calibrate their politics?
You see, in the 80s, almost all comics
were left-wing, anti- Thatcher. Some of
them went on to become
multi-millionaires and turned into
tourists themselves. But it was the
zeitgeist. Yes. Is it now? I would say
the majority, yes. But then I think a
lot of people that do make uh
declarations about their political
leanings uh I think they uh care more
about you know I guess their this world
and the world. Yeah. More more than
their careers. Well look Den we really
look forward to the series. When does it
start? Uh series will be out in autumn.
I haven't got a confirmed date but uh
people should pay attention around
October time or saying. So just uh
giving people time to enjoy their summer
first. Uh and then enjoy autumn with
enjoy autumn. Sunny D with Dan Baptiste
on BBC 3. Thanks very much for coming on
board the Sputnik.
[Music]
And now it's your turn to tell us what
you think through the portals of social
media. What's right? So from Italy to
Greece, uh France and Netherlands,
economic and social crisis worsening.
What is this the end of the EU? At
Montante says the EU project was a
disaster. Unelected elites stealing our
sovereignty. good by NWO.
Well, you know, the the doctor made the
point that the only way that the EU can
be saved was his four-point program,
none of which has any possibility of
being achieved. So, I think in his heart
he and the rest of the Eurekats know
that it's its day has gone and it's uh
demise is coming. Well, that's all the
tweets that we have for today, which
alas means that's the end of the show.
You can stay in touch with us though on
Twitter at RT_Sputnik or on Facebook
Sputnik on Russia Today. It's goodbye
from me guy and from me George Galloway.
It's been marvelous.